I can't not think of the men Dominique Pelicote invited into his home, his wife. Regular men. Neighbors. The butcher, the baker, the old man across the street. If that is not the ultimate manosphere hack, I don't know what is and it seems like the next logical progression in world where women are to blame if they don't like a man— there is something wrong with that girl. In a world where men feel entitled. Those boot camps teach manipulation and hacks and isn't a Rophie at the bar nothing but a hack to something he's entitled to? Entitled. The sense of entitlement, that's the root. A root. This one has so many roots the only answer may be to salt the earth.
The Pelicot case. I think we all keep coming back to that. And the rest of them. The websites, the other cases in Europe, the sting operation that just went down. I haven't even been able to write about that because...where to start? I mean what are we supposed to DO with that knowledge? Excellent point about drugging being a "hack", and another form of entitlement. I guess I can never wrap my brain around thinking that you're entitled to another person's body. And having so little regard for them and SO MUCH for yourself, that you'd treat them with the same regard as a day old fish wrapped in a newspaper. It's mind-boggling to me.
I think a day old fish wrapped in a newspaper is actually better off than the women who are treated like objects by the men who drug them, rape them, take videos and post about their actions proudly with absolutely no remorse. I do not understand how people like this exist and can live with themselves.
I’d love for each of them to vaporize instantaneously upon their first thought that this is acceptable. Yes, it’s a fucking fantasy. Intent is enough. Or just let their dicks vaporize. That’s the warning.
I’ve never advocated for a death penalty for anything, I think there’s better ways to deal with crime. These men are beyond the pale. When a man commits rape, and is prosecuted and convicted and a judge issues a sentence of 2 or 3 years, that enrages me too.
They’ve indulged in their perversion, and ruined a woman’s life FOREVER, they should have to pay FOREVER. She’s been sentenced to a lifetime of PTSD. When and if she recovers fully is always a question. When she’s hopefully healed from the trauma, then the prison term can be reevaluated. But until that time, they’re both in prison.
I wonder if there will ever be real justice.
I wonder if men will ever stop. I have severe doubts about both every coming true.
For as long as she’s been sentenced to bear the emotional (and possible physical wounds, that’s how long he should suffer.
I hear you. I struggle mightily with the idea of punitive consequences for rape. What should they be? I don’t believe that imprisonment without rehabilitation is the answer in most cases. But rape. Yeah. Until we do something that works at a deterrent, it will keep happening. If nothing happens, then it’s essentially legal. If it’s a slap on the wrist, then it’s essentially legal. Public shaming? Bring back stockades and rotten fruit? Other men have to shame other men. Until then, we do what we’re doing. It is different, even though it all feels like shit. Twenty years ago an allegation of sexual assault would not have been enough for a candidate to drop their campaign. Women (and male allies) are taking less shit and making more noise. So no, it’s not great. But it is better. And somedays that has to be enough to get you through, otherwise it’s hard to keep going.
Everything you say is true. Public shaming? It almost seems impossible. Can they even experience shame? Not sure. Yes, it's a tad better.There has to be rehabilitation coupled with a prison term, but the consequences here?They're a joke. I read my local paper.Statutory rape gets maybe two years. I just saw it last week. The whole thing is grotesque. Oh, Dina. I'm going to keep going even if it's hard. When has it not been hard?
Oh, and I got the books! Thank you and thank your mom. xo
Good. I hear that and I'm glad. My rage towards one kid, carried me through life, hanging on, always there. It affected decisions I made, and definitely altered my direction in life. What happened wasn't the direct cause but it played a huge part in my exclusion by self and others. Ruined? No, But altered, changed. And all kinds of things that happen in our lives do that. That points to the old truth that you and I both know. We have little control over anything that happens, we are only responsible for how we respond to those events. xo
The Pelicote case—ugh. You’re right, it’s hard not to think of that. And Motherless. Every time these manosphere conversations came up. You may be right about salting the earth.
I think we’re living this on a global scale at the moment. Too many people don’t want to look closely and figure out how to fix things, far easier to blame immigrants. Or women. Or Black, brown, poor people. It’s always someone else’s fault.
All the shortcuts are worth it for them if they view women as a thing to be caught. The gaming of dating goes hand in hand with the dehumanization.
The downside to the shortcuts is that you miss the human connection, the genuine affection and the close bond that would normally develop in a relationship.
But if you don't view women as fully human, those benefits you're renouncing through the hacks were not on the table for you anyway.
I think the ones who are in it for the win aren't doing it for relationships or even sex. I think they think the sex, the number of "hot" women, etc. is going to impress other men. Patriarchy is homoerotic in its quest to perform for and impress other men--which is the biggest irony of all, to me. When you read the accounts of some of these men, it's clear to me that "some" of them want that deeper connection, but are clueless how to achieve it (hence paying someone to "teach" them how. Others though are just in it to get more bang for their buck.
They could just ask women. But you know, they don't trust women to know what they want so they turn to men.
Women have long been judged as unreliable witnesses to their own experiences - whether that be their pain (medical misogyny), their experience of sexual harassment, assault, or how bone-achingly tired we are when bringing up children and working, while our male partners are off doing their hobbies on their weekends off or using their days off to play video games or watch films…Well, you get the picture. That’s probably why men often say that women falsely accuse men of 🍇 when most of the evidence shows that women under-report sexual assault, are more likely to be the ones on trial should a man be arrested for assault (what were you wearing? Were you drunk? Oh, we’ve looked through your social media, bit of a slut, aren’t you?).
It also reminds me of the scene in Aladdin where Princess Jasmine says “I am not a prize to be won!”, while her father, Aladdin and Jafar argue over who should marry her.
Say it loud: WOMEN ARE HUMAN BEINGS! And definitely not deformed men, or small men, or too emotional or too flaky.
“The men profiled in the article weren’t bad people. They struck me as lonely humans, seeking connections.”
🤔hmm. Maybe not bad people but do you really think they are good people?
Dating won’t cure loneliness. It will probably only exacerbate it. Caring about something or someone more than your own self and putting action and energy into that is what works against loneliness.
Good people know this. That’s why you don’t see them on the apps or in dating boot camps.
I think they're flawed people, probably hurt, and probably never learned the means to communicate their needs or learn strategies to overcome a lot of the flawed thinking. I think therapy would be the most helpful, but that's hard. Hence why people buy the snake oil. It's a quick and easy fix and doesn't require any real self-reflection or accountability. The same thing happens with anti-immigrant rhetoric. Blame the immigrant, it's an easy fix. And there are a lot of forces out there that will and do manipulate that fear and exploit it for their own benefit/financial gain. Maybe good/bad is too binary. Next time I'll use a better word!
I think I’m a bit older than you are, Dina. I was a fourteen-year-old girl whose dad caught her sneaking into bars to play Asteroids when it was brand new in 1977. I’ve been playing video games ever since, and excelling at some of them. I play with my 30-year old son. I play with other old women who game, which is a riot and we always talk about creating a Twitch channel, but never do it.
Life in general cannot be gamed or hacked, despite all the people who try in their various ways whether through their religion, their fervent comments on Facebook, or by trying to follow the advice of others. So many young men would be so much happier if they could just accept the age old advice to be themselves. My goofy gamer-boi nerd went on to play competitively, and to write some brilliant screeds. He also met the love of his life, a wonderful woman, through gaming. She’s unarguably better at video games than he is, and he’s always acknowledged it. Their love developed not from beating one another at anything or from slaughtering other teams. It arrived the same way it did for his sister. Both couples were best friends first. They genuinely enjoy the qualities in one another and talk about things.
If nothing else, my kids learned through watching my mistakes. Oh, hooray! I served as a bad example, but they have gotten relationships right.
And how did I miss hair scrunchies as a sex toy? Damn.
I love your writing. Thanks for doing what you do.
The scrunchie, lol. Now, I'm starting to doubt my own memories--but it was essentially just used as a cock ring. It was about his pleasure, you pleasing him. Typical Cosmo bullshit. I was never a video game lover, just wasn't my thing. I do think today's games are different (in that they're constantly available, although I guess once home consoles like Atari became a thing, they were available outside the arcade as well), and some of them are designed to be addictive, and for kids, that rankles me. At one point, we had to ban one of our kids from playing Fortnite when Fortnite was all the rage because when he played, he was an asshole. It was like living with The Hulk. No more game, his mood regulated. We also taught them that the coolest people we know are the ones that aren't afraid to be themselves. Not always easy, but life advice we stand by. Get comfortable in your skin and just own it.
I had a couple of hard and fast rules with my son where video games are concerned. I played them online long before he was old enough to, so until he was in high school, he wan’t allowed to play any of them unsupervised whatsoever. Sportsmanship was just as important in any game as it is in real life: it’s a game, and if you act like an asshole, no one will have fun. Games and competition are supposed to be fun. If you’re not having fun, put it down and find a good book, or go play the piano.
He and I played some ridiculously violent games together, but we both preferred story driven games. Our favorites have always been the Legend of Zelda series of games.
We played World of Warcraft together, in chats where others could hear us, and his hard and fast rule was that nobody could trash talk his mother, and he didn’t care who knew he was playing with his mom. We made some friends we have lasted a lifetime playing games.
He never got interested in Fortnite because there wasn’t a tale being told.
If you make a twitch channel, I’ll subscribe even though I don’t play video games or know what twitch is. Watching women my age play video games sounds more entertaining than anything I could stream on tv.
And yea - the POS (patriarchal operating system as I am now calling it) - is a POS at getting men to take shortcuts to their entitlement instead of doing the actual freaking work. I cannot wait to share why all this is so, hopefully this fall!
anywho, you probably don't need The Burned Haystack by Jenni -- but for all the single women out there - I highly encourage her substack and book. Her rhetorical analysis of men's dating profiles, pictures and texting convos is LITERALLY Deconstructing the POS when it comes to women interacting with men in the POS!!
Ha. Love POS--it's perfect. That was the sad thing. Some of these guys were fairly close to understanding that they needed to unpack their own feelings. They were just sold a lie that dating hot women (which clearly wasn't happening) was the answer. It's like save your money and go to therapy. I promise you'll be happier.
As an inveterate gamer, I never understood my GenZ kiddos watching other people play video games they never intended to play themselves. I think I was too old when Twitch et al was born. They're adults now and they still do, but I think I sort of get it. They're watching a story that intrigues them (or "influencers" whose banter amuses them) and aren't interested in suffering the gameplay to enjoy the story.
As an old married fellow, I routinely encourage younger fellows who lament their confusion about what the fairer sex wants to do two things: ask them (they'll freely tell you, in my experience) and read a mountain of romance novels (therein you'll find the fantasies that many of them desire). Too few of those fellows listen. 😞
That is excellent advice, Dave. The romance novels, especially the contemporary ones (which are funny! And steamy!) is a good approach. I only say that because I avoided reading romance novels for a long time because I "thought" they were too patriarchal damsel in distress-y, but in reality, what most of those books have in common is that the characters listen to and respect each other. Romance novels, if looked at through a lens of women's fantasies, is about finding someone who is going to "get" them. And I think that's the big disconnect. Men are telling other men (and telling women) that women want men who are going to protect and provide for them. Women are like, eh, I really just want a partner who is going to respect me and listen to me. And the men are like 'no, that's not what you want, trust me". And nowadays, more young women are saying, I'd rather live my best life on my own, thanks.
And learn to ballroom dance. Lots of girls enjoy it and it's a chance to get close and chat while you're dancing and have the dancing to distract you if the chatting's not going well.
I get that. I probably could have used a better word. Clueless? Yes. A product of patriarchal conditioning? Yes. Performing for the other men and trying to be cool for the reporter? No doubt. But in a world where men are visiting websites to learn how to drug and rape their wives, I'm inclined to look at that one as a teachable moment. The problem, of course, is that the guys he is paying to teach him don't see that as a problem. Hence why these things never work and aren't really ever about what they say/think they're about.
I love that comparison, Dina. It explains so much. Of course they want a hack. Who wants to go through all that awkwardness? But the other problem is how they all want Barbie, and an anatomically impossible ideal. And she doesn't talk. Hmmm. Instead, finding another human being they can partner with just seems impossible. What do they think is going to happen when Barbie comes to life? Didn't think that far? Guess not. It all makes me so sad for us. I saw another post about the resurgence of the Boston marriage this week. And another about how all the systems we live inside need every woman to have 2+ children or everything goes caput. And no country is doing it. Hungary even spent a gross percentage of its GNP bribing people, and even that didn't work. Enter the Handmaids.
Susan, you sometimes get into my head in the freakiest way. This piece started out as something else, and I was trying to mash two ideas together and it just wasn't working, so I ended up separating them, but originally, there was a line about Galatea in there, about whether or not these men would play Pygmalion and wish her alive, or if they'd be happy enough to leave her a perfect stone image so they could watch the game in peace. (It might pop up in the other piece, who knows). As for falling birth rates--governments want to hack that too. It turns out that when women control the means to their own reproduction, they don't want to have so many kids. I am routinely astounded at how many people that craft policy fail to recognize that, or more than likely, just ignore it. The planet has enough people--move some around and most problems will be solved. But you know, that would mean white people in post-industrial nations having to live next to non-white people and we can't have that, can we?
I love that about us. Must be the mythological lens. I wanted to stay with your Barbie image, but Galatea is all over this. And Pygmalion, and the My Fair Lady that came after that. Hmmm. Wonder why that story has such long legs? Just train the woman to say: "The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain," in the correct accent, and you have a perfectly pliable baby vending machine. "It's because she has no power," Svengali!
I don't think people in power fail to recognize our will, ignore it, or even don't care. I think they want to force us, in a world-ending desperation kind of way. You will marry and have children because everything will go to shit if you don't. That would be their everything, their institutions, their tax base, their empty school buildings, their privilege.
Sorry. I made myself watch JD Vance on his book tour, and I can't stop answering back in my mind. You know. As you do. Just smarmy, lying through his teeth. His Palantir PayPal doesn't believe all that god shit either. They know a lot more about systems collapse than they are saying. They do think more babies are the answer, though they are ignoring climate change unless they are building a bunker.
One of the big questions being asked of us in this refugee crisis is exactly the one you pose. Why not love the people who are here? Enfold them into the culture? Make them welcome? Like the Beetles said so long ago, "All you need is Love." There really is no such thing as whiteness. It's a made-up construct designed to protect the privileged who are tearing up the natural world for firewood to warm their greed.
Sorry for the rant. I must be warming up my vocal cords for my next piece...
Great piece, Dina. As long as straight men are conditioned from the time they’re young to feel that they are entitled to women’s attention, time and labor, this will continue. Men are floundering because so many independent, young women are no longer centering them. They actually have to bring something other than their societal status and access to the table Yet, they keep going back to the worst male role models to try to “win” and “score.” It’s ludicrous. This whole patriarchal system is ludicrous. It’s dysfunctional, dangerous and it needs to go. The pathetic part of the boot camp/manosphere grift is that the men and boys who follow their teachings are so gullible, male centered, and incapable of figuring out that women want to be treated like full human beings, not lotto tickets. Maybe they actually don’t even know how to treat themselves as real human beings so they can’t understand the concept.
Yes to all of it. I was running out of steam but I wanted to squeeze in there somewhere that in reality, the dating didn’t even seem to be for them, but just to prove to other MEN they were successful. Their enjoyment of a relationship wasn’t a priority, and certainly HER enjoyment was not even considered. It was all peacocking for other men. The whole thing is sad on many levels. Sad because humans do need human connection and it IS lonely when you don’t have that, and sad because this is not the right way to go about it and it’s probably just going to lead to more resentment and disillusionment and sad, pathetic, that we’re all still languishing under this dinosaur of a system.
I think that men are all about other men, no matter their sexual orientation. It’s how they’re conditioned. The difference now is that straight women are no longer all about men.
This feels like the core of it. Instead of developing actual capabilities and connections, which is what I think they’re truly longing for but are mostly blind to, they think they want a shiny toy to show off to the world (ie other men). So they either successfully trick their way into acquiring the shiny toy and its associated status, or fail at that and blame the toy for declaring itself to be out of stock. And both scenarios leave them no further along in developing the skills and abilities and connections that actually enrich life and build true confidence.
A truly capable man is attractive to women, and that capability also provides him with genuine self confidence, meaning he ends up with the status and perks of ‘scoring’ (for want of a better word) with women, trust in himself, as well as greater potential for human connection. But as other commenters have said, that is too much work for these men.
I think that longing for human connection is real, and probably why I can't just diminish it all completely with a "good luck, bro" and wash my hands of it. The system, the patriarchy, all of it, has shafted men too, in a way that has never given them any real chance at learning how to communicate effectively beyond "win/lose". There is little space for men to explore vulnerability or emotional intelligence unless they purposefully seek that out. Much easier to use the women in your life as a therapist and if she happens to look like Barbie, all the better. I keep saying the whole thing makes me sad, and it does. I mean it makes me rage-y too, but that's my default mode as a middle-age woman, so I'm trying to diversify ;-). Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Some of the men? Oh, absolutely. The ones interviewed came across as...sad. They're stil trying to game the system, but they're never going to win because it's a system you can't game in any meaningful way. Outside the article. Yes, also absolutely that some men are bad.
They may not be bad people, though I question that. But they lack discernment, a moral compass, and a conscience. My guess is most of them are not very bright. But I know men who are quite intelligent who are troubled by the same things, so maybe it's not a matter of brains. Not quite sure what to do with my disgust and my anger. I feel sorry for them. They're missing so much. It has very little to do with sex. Dig deeper boys, there's gold underneath all that nonsense you're being fed. There are no shortcuts to joy, to kindness, to a meaningful life.
Dina, thank you for renewing my ire every time you publish an essay. Your words pump me with passion for the cause. I'm so delighted to have found the most beautiful hive of beautiful, smart, striving women. Not talking physical beauty, though that's here too. And what I consider beautiful has more to do with smiles, sparkly eyes, and gorgeous souls than anything else. It has nothing to do with Barbie boobs and long legs. ICK.
I don't even think that's what these men want. I think that's what they think they're supposed to want because that's what is going to score them points with OTHER MEN. That's how deep the dissonance is, not even really being able to look into your own psyche and think, this is what I'm looking for in a partner, which, almost assuredly, is NOT going to be about thigh gaps and bra sizes, but in the way that person interacts with you. Because the men that do focus solely on looks/types are usually the first to complain when that person treats them shoddily--and they can't even see the connection there. So yes, ick. Cluelessness for sure. Not even having the insight to know what is missing from your life, if anything, is sad (and a byproduct of the patriarchy--men didn't have to *know* these things, because a woman was always there knowing for them. Now, not so much, hence the fit throwing we are seeing on such a huge scale).
Great article, Dina. I'm actually drafting one about a similar topic right now. The dating scene seems so bleak these days. Maria Cassano published an article the other day about some sobering (read: sickening) dating experiences. I can't help but feel like all of this will either blow up soon, or swing the other way. Women won't put up with this much longer.
I think that women stopped putting up with it on a large scale a while ago. Me Too sped things up, but the shift was already underway. I believe what we’re seeing now is a backlash to all of that—the real question is are there enough that cement the change, or, will women just go and live in the woods on their own like they’ve always done, washing their hands of the bullshit? I guess time will tell.
The beauty of a fertile mind is the places it will take you when writing, even journaling! Can’t tell you how many adventures in awareness I’ve had reading back a screed I wrote and realizing I ended up in an entirely different place, one I absolutely needed to be.
I love your writing and your message, you have a way of delivering the sword point first that never feels like an attack but cuts nonetheless. Well done!
As to the topic at hand I’ve also noticed this ‘need to hate’ as justification for a lack of skill or, more to the point, attention to detail.
Some of these ‘manosphere’ guys are laughable, some regrettable and some downright dangerous. I think that the worst part of that whole movement is the intended audience; giving the disaffected a target to blame is exactly how racism, sexism and all the other isms gain a psychic foothold. And watching it in real time with guys I’ve known and loved for years can be discouraging, to say the least.
Anyway, thank you for another great piece. You are appreciated 🙏
That was a lovely compliment, Jim, thank you! I can't imagine how difficult it is to watch friends you've known and respected fall into a rabbit hole of isms (that's a great title for something, btw). And yes, I think what is happening with the manosphere is a symptom of what is happening on a larger scale, with immigration, with wealth inequality. The same tenants hold true: it's easier to blame someone else for your problems and challenges than it is to figure out a way out of them. Thanks again for the thoughtful comment.
I can't not think of the men Dominique Pelicote invited into his home, his wife. Regular men. Neighbors. The butcher, the baker, the old man across the street. If that is not the ultimate manosphere hack, I don't know what is and it seems like the next logical progression in world where women are to blame if they don't like a man— there is something wrong with that girl. In a world where men feel entitled. Those boot camps teach manipulation and hacks and isn't a Rophie at the bar nothing but a hack to something he's entitled to? Entitled. The sense of entitlement, that's the root. A root. This one has so many roots the only answer may be to salt the earth.
The Pelicot case. I think we all keep coming back to that. And the rest of them. The websites, the other cases in Europe, the sting operation that just went down. I haven't even been able to write about that because...where to start? I mean what are we supposed to DO with that knowledge? Excellent point about drugging being a "hack", and another form of entitlement. I guess I can never wrap my brain around thinking that you're entitled to another person's body. And having so little regard for them and SO MUCH for yourself, that you'd treat them with the same regard as a day old fish wrapped in a newspaper. It's mind-boggling to me.
I think a day old fish wrapped in a newspaper is actually better off than the women who are treated like objects by the men who drug them, rape them, take videos and post about their actions proudly with absolutely no remorse. I do not understand how people like this exist and can live with themselves.
I’d love for each of them to vaporize instantaneously upon their first thought that this is acceptable. Yes, it’s a fucking fantasy. Intent is enough. Or just let their dicks vaporize. That’s the warning.
I’ve never advocated for a death penalty for anything, I think there’s better ways to deal with crime. These men are beyond the pale. When a man commits rape, and is prosecuted and convicted and a judge issues a sentence of 2 or 3 years, that enrages me too.
They’ve indulged in their perversion, and ruined a woman’s life FOREVER, they should have to pay FOREVER. She’s been sentenced to a lifetime of PTSD. When and if she recovers fully is always a question. When she’s hopefully healed from the trauma, then the prison term can be reevaluated. But until that time, they’re both in prison.
I wonder if there will ever be real justice.
I wonder if men will ever stop. I have severe doubts about both every coming true.
For as long as she’s been sentenced to bear the emotional (and possible physical wounds, that’s how long he should suffer.
xo
I hear you. I struggle mightily with the idea of punitive consequences for rape. What should they be? I don’t believe that imprisonment without rehabilitation is the answer in most cases. But rape. Yeah. Until we do something that works at a deterrent, it will keep happening. If nothing happens, then it’s essentially legal. If it’s a slap on the wrist, then it’s essentially legal. Public shaming? Bring back stockades and rotten fruit? Other men have to shame other men. Until then, we do what we’re doing. It is different, even though it all feels like shit. Twenty years ago an allegation of sexual assault would not have been enough for a candidate to drop their campaign. Women (and male allies) are taking less shit and making more noise. So no, it’s not great. But it is better. And somedays that has to be enough to get you through, otherwise it’s hard to keep going.
Everything you say is true. Public shaming? It almost seems impossible. Can they even experience shame? Not sure. Yes, it's a tad better.There has to be rehabilitation coupled with a prison term, but the consequences here?They're a joke. I read my local paper.Statutory rape gets maybe two years. I just saw it last week. The whole thing is grotesque. Oh, Dina. I'm going to keep going even if it's hard. When has it not been hard?
Oh, and I got the books! Thank you and thank your mom. xo
Hooray! I was going to ask you about the books. Glad they arrived :-)
I don’t accept that my life is/was ruined forever. Altered. Changed. But ruined? No.
Good. I hear that and I'm glad. My rage towards one kid, carried me through life, hanging on, always there. It affected decisions I made, and definitely altered my direction in life. What happened wasn't the direct cause but it played a huge part in my exclusion by self and others. Ruined? No, But altered, changed. And all kinds of things that happen in our lives do that. That points to the old truth that you and I both know. We have little control over anything that happens, we are only responsible for how we respond to those events. xo
The Pelicote case—ugh. You’re right, it’s hard not to think of that. And Motherless. Every time these manosphere conversations came up. You may be right about salting the earth.
So true and I'm still so very horrified by the banality of the evil entitlement displayed by those monstrous ordinary men.
Life doesn’t come with a hack. Maybe we’re finally having to face that.
I think we’re living this on a global scale at the moment. Too many people don’t want to look closely and figure out how to fix things, far easier to blame immigrants. Or women. Or Black, brown, poor people. It’s always someone else’s fault.
For real. And it’s failing on every level and scale.
All the shortcuts are worth it for them if they view women as a thing to be caught. The gaming of dating goes hand in hand with the dehumanization.
The downside to the shortcuts is that you miss the human connection, the genuine affection and the close bond that would normally develop in a relationship.
But if you don't view women as fully human, those benefits you're renouncing through the hacks were not on the table for you anyway.
I think the ones who are in it for the win aren't doing it for relationships or even sex. I think they think the sex, the number of "hot" women, etc. is going to impress other men. Patriarchy is homoerotic in its quest to perform for and impress other men--which is the biggest irony of all, to me. When you read the accounts of some of these men, it's clear to me that "some" of them want that deeper connection, but are clueless how to achieve it (hence paying someone to "teach" them how. Others though are just in it to get more bang for their buck.
They could just ask women. But you know, they don't trust women to know what they want so they turn to men.
Women have long been judged as unreliable witnesses to their own experiences - whether that be their pain (medical misogyny), their experience of sexual harassment, assault, or how bone-achingly tired we are when bringing up children and working, while our male partners are off doing their hobbies on their weekends off or using their days off to play video games or watch films…Well, you get the picture. That’s probably why men often say that women falsely accuse men of 🍇 when most of the evidence shows that women under-report sexual assault, are more likely to be the ones on trial should a man be arrested for assault (what were you wearing? Were you drunk? Oh, we’ve looked through your social media, bit of a slut, aren’t you?).
It also reminds me of the scene in Aladdin where Princess Jasmine says “I am not a prize to be won!”, while her father, Aladdin and Jafar argue over who should marry her.
Say it loud: WOMEN ARE HUMAN BEINGS! And definitely not deformed men, or small men, or too emotional or too flaky.
Hear, hear!
“The men profiled in the article weren’t bad people. They struck me as lonely humans, seeking connections.”
🤔hmm. Maybe not bad people but do you really think they are good people?
Dating won’t cure loneliness. It will probably only exacerbate it. Caring about something or someone more than your own self and putting action and energy into that is what works against loneliness.
Good people know this. That’s why you don’t see them on the apps or in dating boot camps.
I think they're flawed people, probably hurt, and probably never learned the means to communicate their needs or learn strategies to overcome a lot of the flawed thinking. I think therapy would be the most helpful, but that's hard. Hence why people buy the snake oil. It's a quick and easy fix and doesn't require any real self-reflection or accountability. The same thing happens with anti-immigrant rhetoric. Blame the immigrant, it's an easy fix. And there are a lot of forces out there that will and do manipulate that fear and exploit it for their own benefit/financial gain. Maybe good/bad is too binary. Next time I'll use a better word!
I think I’m a bit older than you are, Dina. I was a fourteen-year-old girl whose dad caught her sneaking into bars to play Asteroids when it was brand new in 1977. I’ve been playing video games ever since, and excelling at some of them. I play with my 30-year old son. I play with other old women who game, which is a riot and we always talk about creating a Twitch channel, but never do it.
Life in general cannot be gamed or hacked, despite all the people who try in their various ways whether through their religion, their fervent comments on Facebook, or by trying to follow the advice of others. So many young men would be so much happier if they could just accept the age old advice to be themselves. My goofy gamer-boi nerd went on to play competitively, and to write some brilliant screeds. He also met the love of his life, a wonderful woman, through gaming. She’s unarguably better at video games than he is, and he’s always acknowledged it. Their love developed not from beating one another at anything or from slaughtering other teams. It arrived the same way it did for his sister. Both couples were best friends first. They genuinely enjoy the qualities in one another and talk about things.
If nothing else, my kids learned through watching my mistakes. Oh, hooray! I served as a bad example, but they have gotten relationships right.
And how did I miss hair scrunchies as a sex toy? Damn.
I love your writing. Thanks for doing what you do.
The scrunchie, lol. Now, I'm starting to doubt my own memories--but it was essentially just used as a cock ring. It was about his pleasure, you pleasing him. Typical Cosmo bullshit. I was never a video game lover, just wasn't my thing. I do think today's games are different (in that they're constantly available, although I guess once home consoles like Atari became a thing, they were available outside the arcade as well), and some of them are designed to be addictive, and for kids, that rankles me. At one point, we had to ban one of our kids from playing Fortnite when Fortnite was all the rage because when he played, he was an asshole. It was like living with The Hulk. No more game, his mood regulated. We also taught them that the coolest people we know are the ones that aren't afraid to be themselves. Not always easy, but life advice we stand by. Get comfortable in your skin and just own it.
I had a couple of hard and fast rules with my son where video games are concerned. I played them online long before he was old enough to, so until he was in high school, he wan’t allowed to play any of them unsupervised whatsoever. Sportsmanship was just as important in any game as it is in real life: it’s a game, and if you act like an asshole, no one will have fun. Games and competition are supposed to be fun. If you’re not having fun, put it down and find a good book, or go play the piano.
He and I played some ridiculously violent games together, but we both preferred story driven games. Our favorites have always been the Legend of Zelda series of games.
We played World of Warcraft together, in chats where others could hear us, and his hard and fast rule was that nobody could trash talk his mother, and he didn’t care who knew he was playing with his mom. We made some friends we have lasted a lifetime playing games.
He never got interested in Fortnite because there wasn’t a tale being told.
If you make a twitch channel, I’ll subscribe even though I don’t play video games or know what twitch is. Watching women my age play video games sounds more entertaining than anything I could stream on tv.
It’s a lot of silliness and profanity.
Pac-Man at Skate Palace - YES!!
And yea - the POS (patriarchal operating system as I am now calling it) - is a POS at getting men to take shortcuts to their entitlement instead of doing the actual freaking work. I cannot wait to share why all this is so, hopefully this fall!
anywho, you probably don't need The Burned Haystack by Jenni -- but for all the single women out there - I highly encourage her substack and book. Her rhetorical analysis of men's dating profiles, pictures and texting convos is LITERALLY Deconstructing the POS when it comes to women interacting with men in the POS!!
Ha. Love POS--it's perfect. That was the sad thing. Some of these guys were fairly close to understanding that they needed to unpack their own feelings. They were just sold a lie that dating hot women (which clearly wasn't happening) was the answer. It's like save your money and go to therapy. I promise you'll be happier.
🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
As an inveterate gamer, I never understood my GenZ kiddos watching other people play video games they never intended to play themselves. I think I was too old when Twitch et al was born. They're adults now and they still do, but I think I sort of get it. They're watching a story that intrigues them (or "influencers" whose banter amuses them) and aren't interested in suffering the gameplay to enjoy the story.
As an old married fellow, I routinely encourage younger fellows who lament their confusion about what the fairer sex wants to do two things: ask them (they'll freely tell you, in my experience) and read a mountain of romance novels (therein you'll find the fantasies that many of them desire). Too few of those fellows listen. 😞
That is excellent advice, Dave. The romance novels, especially the contemporary ones (which are funny! And steamy!) is a good approach. I only say that because I avoided reading romance novels for a long time because I "thought" they were too patriarchal damsel in distress-y, but in reality, what most of those books have in common is that the characters listen to and respect each other. Romance novels, if looked at through a lens of women's fantasies, is about finding someone who is going to "get" them. And I think that's the big disconnect. Men are telling other men (and telling women) that women want men who are going to protect and provide for them. Women are like, eh, I really just want a partner who is going to respect me and listen to me. And the men are like 'no, that's not what you want, trust me". And nowadays, more young women are saying, I'd rather live my best life on my own, thanks.
And learn to ballroom dance. Lots of girls enjoy it and it's a chance to get close and chat while you're dancing and have the dancing to distract you if the chatting's not going well.
I don't know. I think th emiddle aged divorced guy calling women Barbies might be a bad guy.
I get that. I probably could have used a better word. Clueless? Yes. A product of patriarchal conditioning? Yes. Performing for the other men and trying to be cool for the reporter? No doubt. But in a world where men are visiting websites to learn how to drug and rape their wives, I'm inclined to look at that one as a teachable moment. The problem, of course, is that the guys he is paying to teach him don't see that as a problem. Hence why these things never work and aren't really ever about what they say/think they're about.
Yeah, it's true that some men are really terrible, so the bar is low for "not bad".
I love that comparison, Dina. It explains so much. Of course they want a hack. Who wants to go through all that awkwardness? But the other problem is how they all want Barbie, and an anatomically impossible ideal. And she doesn't talk. Hmmm. Instead, finding another human being they can partner with just seems impossible. What do they think is going to happen when Barbie comes to life? Didn't think that far? Guess not. It all makes me so sad for us. I saw another post about the resurgence of the Boston marriage this week. And another about how all the systems we live inside need every woman to have 2+ children or everything goes caput. And no country is doing it. Hungary even spent a gross percentage of its GNP bribing people, and even that didn't work. Enter the Handmaids.
Susan, you sometimes get into my head in the freakiest way. This piece started out as something else, and I was trying to mash two ideas together and it just wasn't working, so I ended up separating them, but originally, there was a line about Galatea in there, about whether or not these men would play Pygmalion and wish her alive, or if they'd be happy enough to leave her a perfect stone image so they could watch the game in peace. (It might pop up in the other piece, who knows). As for falling birth rates--governments want to hack that too. It turns out that when women control the means to their own reproduction, they don't want to have so many kids. I am routinely astounded at how many people that craft policy fail to recognize that, or more than likely, just ignore it. The planet has enough people--move some around and most problems will be solved. But you know, that would mean white people in post-industrial nations having to live next to non-white people and we can't have that, can we?
I love that about us. Must be the mythological lens. I wanted to stay with your Barbie image, but Galatea is all over this. And Pygmalion, and the My Fair Lady that came after that. Hmmm. Wonder why that story has such long legs? Just train the woman to say: "The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain," in the correct accent, and you have a perfectly pliable baby vending machine. "It's because she has no power," Svengali!
I don't think people in power fail to recognize our will, ignore it, or even don't care. I think they want to force us, in a world-ending desperation kind of way. You will marry and have children because everything will go to shit if you don't. That would be their everything, their institutions, their tax base, their empty school buildings, their privilege.
Sorry. I made myself watch JD Vance on his book tour, and I can't stop answering back in my mind. You know. As you do. Just smarmy, lying through his teeth. His Palantir PayPal doesn't believe all that god shit either. They know a lot more about systems collapse than they are saying. They do think more babies are the answer, though they are ignoring climate change unless they are building a bunker.
One of the big questions being asked of us in this refugee crisis is exactly the one you pose. Why not love the people who are here? Enfold them into the culture? Make them welcome? Like the Beetles said so long ago, "All you need is Love." There really is no such thing as whiteness. It's a made-up construct designed to protect the privileged who are tearing up the natural world for firewood to warm their greed.
Sorry for the rant. I must be warming up my vocal cords for my next piece...
Great piece, Dina. As long as straight men are conditioned from the time they’re young to feel that they are entitled to women’s attention, time and labor, this will continue. Men are floundering because so many independent, young women are no longer centering them. They actually have to bring something other than their societal status and access to the table Yet, they keep going back to the worst male role models to try to “win” and “score.” It’s ludicrous. This whole patriarchal system is ludicrous. It’s dysfunctional, dangerous and it needs to go. The pathetic part of the boot camp/manosphere grift is that the men and boys who follow their teachings are so gullible, male centered, and incapable of figuring out that women want to be treated like full human beings, not lotto tickets. Maybe they actually don’t even know how to treat themselves as real human beings so they can’t understand the concept.
Yes to all of it. I was running out of steam but I wanted to squeeze in there somewhere that in reality, the dating didn’t even seem to be for them, but just to prove to other MEN they were successful. Their enjoyment of a relationship wasn’t a priority, and certainly HER enjoyment was not even considered. It was all peacocking for other men. The whole thing is sad on many levels. Sad because humans do need human connection and it IS lonely when you don’t have that, and sad because this is not the right way to go about it and it’s probably just going to lead to more resentment and disillusionment and sad, pathetic, that we’re all still languishing under this dinosaur of a system.
I think that men are all about other men, no matter their sexual orientation. It’s how they’re conditioned. The difference now is that straight women are no longer all about men.
Excellent point.
This feels like the core of it. Instead of developing actual capabilities and connections, which is what I think they’re truly longing for but are mostly blind to, they think they want a shiny toy to show off to the world (ie other men). So they either successfully trick their way into acquiring the shiny toy and its associated status, or fail at that and blame the toy for declaring itself to be out of stock. And both scenarios leave them no further along in developing the skills and abilities and connections that actually enrich life and build true confidence.
A truly capable man is attractive to women, and that capability also provides him with genuine self confidence, meaning he ends up with the status and perks of ‘scoring’ (for want of a better word) with women, trust in himself, as well as greater potential for human connection. But as other commenters have said, that is too much work for these men.
I think that longing for human connection is real, and probably why I can't just diminish it all completely with a "good luck, bro" and wash my hands of it. The system, the patriarchy, all of it, has shafted men too, in a way that has never given them any real chance at learning how to communicate effectively beyond "win/lose". There is little space for men to explore vulnerability or emotional intelligence unless they purposefully seek that out. Much easier to use the women in your life as a therapist and if she happens to look like Barbie, all the better. I keep saying the whole thing makes me sad, and it does. I mean it makes me rage-y too, but that's my default mode as a middle-age woman, so I'm trying to diversify ;-). Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Excellent observations.
Some of them are bad.
Some of the men? Oh, absolutely. The ones interviewed came across as...sad. They're stil trying to game the system, but they're never going to win because it's a system you can't game in any meaningful way. Outside the article. Yes, also absolutely that some men are bad.
The times they are a strangin’! May these games indeed be over soon.
Great piece, Dina.
Thank you Dina, i just posted on male entitlement. So sad it took 3 months to process the.
This essay and all the comments are brilliantly helpful as sick as I still feel
I can't wait to read it, but I'm sorry that the processing was a hard journey. Sending hugs, my friend. x
Dina, that warms my heart.
They may not be bad people, though I question that. But they lack discernment, a moral compass, and a conscience. My guess is most of them are not very bright. But I know men who are quite intelligent who are troubled by the same things, so maybe it's not a matter of brains. Not quite sure what to do with my disgust and my anger. I feel sorry for them. They're missing so much. It has very little to do with sex. Dig deeper boys, there's gold underneath all that nonsense you're being fed. There are no shortcuts to joy, to kindness, to a meaningful life.
Dina, thank you for renewing my ire every time you publish an essay. Your words pump me with passion for the cause. I'm so delighted to have found the most beautiful hive of beautiful, smart, striving women. Not talking physical beauty, though that's here too. And what I consider beautiful has more to do with smiles, sparkly eyes, and gorgeous souls than anything else. It has nothing to do with Barbie boobs and long legs. ICK.
xo
I don't even think that's what these men want. I think that's what they think they're supposed to want because that's what is going to score them points with OTHER MEN. That's how deep the dissonance is, not even really being able to look into your own psyche and think, this is what I'm looking for in a partner, which, almost assuredly, is NOT going to be about thigh gaps and bra sizes, but in the way that person interacts with you. Because the men that do focus solely on looks/types are usually the first to complain when that person treats them shoddily--and they can't even see the connection there. So yes, ick. Cluelessness for sure. Not even having the insight to know what is missing from your life, if anything, is sad (and a byproduct of the patriarchy--men didn't have to *know* these things, because a woman was always there knowing for them. Now, not so much, hence the fit throwing we are seeing on such a huge scale).
Little boys led astray. Time to grow up, yes?
xo
Great article, Dina. I'm actually drafting one about a similar topic right now. The dating scene seems so bleak these days. Maria Cassano published an article the other day about some sobering (read: sickening) dating experiences. I can't help but feel like all of this will either blow up soon, or swing the other way. Women won't put up with this much longer.
I think that women stopped putting up with it on a large scale a while ago. Me Too sped things up, but the shift was already underway. I believe what we’re seeing now is a backlash to all of that—the real question is are there enough that cement the change, or, will women just go and live in the woods on their own like they’ve always done, washing their hands of the bullshit? I guess time will tell.
The beauty of a fertile mind is the places it will take you when writing, even journaling! Can’t tell you how many adventures in awareness I’ve had reading back a screed I wrote and realizing I ended up in an entirely different place, one I absolutely needed to be.
I love your writing and your message, you have a way of delivering the sword point first that never feels like an attack but cuts nonetheless. Well done!
As to the topic at hand I’ve also noticed this ‘need to hate’ as justification for a lack of skill or, more to the point, attention to detail.
Some of these ‘manosphere’ guys are laughable, some regrettable and some downright dangerous. I think that the worst part of that whole movement is the intended audience; giving the disaffected a target to blame is exactly how racism, sexism and all the other isms gain a psychic foothold. And watching it in real time with guys I’ve known and loved for years can be discouraging, to say the least.
Anyway, thank you for another great piece. You are appreciated 🙏
That was a lovely compliment, Jim, thank you! I can't imagine how difficult it is to watch friends you've known and respected fall into a rabbit hole of isms (that's a great title for something, btw). And yes, I think what is happening with the manosphere is a symptom of what is happening on a larger scale, with immigration, with wealth inequality. The same tenants hold true: it's easier to blame someone else for your problems and challenges than it is to figure out a way out of them. Thanks again for the thoughtful comment.